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Welcome to Radical A.I., a podcast about technology, power society and what it means to be human in the age of information, we are your hosts, Dylan and Jess.

And in this episode, we interview Moses Nimura of Black and A.I. about the New Black and A.I. Academic Program, a program that serves as a resource to support black junior researchers as they apply to graduate programs, navigate graduate school and enter the postgraduate job market.

Before we share this interview with Moses and talk about some of the amazing work that Black and I is doing, including this academic program and their mentorship program, we did want to take a few minutes to address the disheartening news that happened in the ethics community this past week. So if you've been in a Twitter or really have been reading The New York Times or The Washington Post this past week, you've probably heard and seen that the co-founder of Black and A.I., Tim Negahban, who was wrongfully fired from Google's ethical A.I. team. And this series of events has huge potential impacts on the tech community at large. And it's clear that how we act now and we not just being the tech industry, but all of us who are interacting with this news, it's clear that how we act now shapes the future that we're hoping to build within this greater community. And so let's talk about it.

Even though the news is still unfolding and there's a lot of new information coming out every single day on Twitter, The New York Times and many other places, here's our take on the events as they transpired as of Monday, December 7th, 2020, and also why they matter. And keep in mind that the specifics might change after this episode is released. So this is just what we know as of right now. So a little while back to Meet co-authored a paper with some other colleagues that highlighted and expressed some concerns about the future of A.I. models, especially natural language models that are going to need really large data sets to run. And some of these concerns included bias with the models and also environmental impact of needing a lot of hardware to run them. So they submitted this paper for internal review at Google, as is the process with most large tech companies that have research teams. And five weeks after the piece had already been internally reviewed and approved for publication within Google through their own standard processes, the Google leadership team actually made the decision to instead tell Timna that she needed to redacted, which everyone is stating is a form of censorship because they did this without warning or cause. So to me, ask them to explain this decision and to take accountability for it, and especially accountability for their poor stances on discriminatory and harassing workplace conditions in the first place. So how did this was? She sent an email to the leadership team asking for three things. She first asked for transparency around who was involved in calling for the reduction of the paper, and then she asked if the leadership team could have a series of meetings with the ethical team. And she finally asked for a better understanding about what was considered acceptable research at Google so that she could know this for the future. And she told them if they weren't able to meet these demands, then she would work on an end date with Google after she got back from her vacation that she was about to leave on.

And just an important point here, when we're talking about reduction, we're really talking about a full retraction of the paper from any sort of publication. So not individual words, censorship, but saying that the paper cannot be published based on internal review. And Timna, at least at the beginning, was not giving any cause whatsoever for why that retraction was requested.

And this was after she had already submitted it to the conference at this point for the conference's own review processes. So additionally, with this along with this email to the leadership team to me, also sent an email internally to what was called the or what is called the Brain and Women's Outfly Listserv, which is a space at Google to foster an inclusive work environment for women in the Google Brain organization. So in this email to that listserv, Tarneit shared her experiences of discrimination and her frustration regarding the inaction of the Google leadership team and the organization around diversity, equity and inclusion efforts. So in this email, she also shared her experience regarding some of the processes of submitting and gaining approval and then being forced to retract this paper. And, of course, this email found a way, its way to the leadership team. So they then reached out to Timna and they told her first that they weren't going to meet her demands or I guess her requests from the earlier email. And because of the email that they saw that she sent to the Brand and Women Allies listserv, they thought that she hadn't acted like a model Google manager. And so instead of working with her about her requests or working with her on a possible end date, they told her that they were actually going to, quote, accept her resignation immediately, which basically means that they used legal use to fire her and then tried to make it sound like she had been the one to make that choice. So after this, her Kaup account was cut off. She no longer had access to any of the emails that she sent and even her immediate manager was not informed of the decision made by the leadership team. And so in light of all of this news and the news that's continuing to come out, we wanted to share that. We stand with the ethics community in believing that Tamny was wrongfully fired from her job at Google. And we think that these acts are symbolic of a much larger problem with racism and discrimination in the tech workplace.

So obviously, you know, we've had to meet on the show before. So we're not unbiased in this. And we understand that Google and especially Google management, they do have their own side to this. And you're welcome to go follow, you know, Jeff Dean on Twitter or whatever to see this this other side. We are after hearing all the sides were still pretty strongly in ten minutes corner here. And even without the particulars, right, the particulars are like depressing, disheartening, heartbreaking to a certain degree, even like in a vacuum, right. Like strategically, it doesn't make sense for Google to have done this. It doesn't like it's obviously unethical, the process that they went through here. But what has really struck us as we've been reflecting on this has been that symbolic element to it, the fact that this is not an isolated incident, that this is happening after Google has time and time again paraded around team need as the black woman who's at the top of their ethics work. And they're working towards diversity and they're working towards inclusion. And then this is what they do behind the scenes.

Right. And this is not something that has happened to just one black woman at one massive tech company right now based on what we've heard. Right. And radicalize as we done these interviews, that this is something that has happened time and time again. And if this is what's happening to the top, to what the company even says is their top ethics researcher who is a black woman, you know, you can just imagine all the different stories of black women who are just getting into the industry of ways that they have been silenced or fired or in this case, quote unquote, you know, ask for their resignation within all of this legalese. And this is a systemic issue here. And I think that's for us and Jessica to correct me if I'm wrong. But I think that's why this is such an important issue for us to talk about and speak up about, because this is this is not just a flash in the pan. This is the pan. Right? This is not a bug. This is the feature of the system.

And in terms of this being symbolic of a much larger issue in not only the tech industry, but honestly, the workplace at large in the world and has been for a very, very long time, there's just some major problems with the way that diversity, equity and inclusion efforts are conducted at some of these large companies. And something that I've seen circling around a lot in the Twitter community, I guess, since this incident was that a lot of people are hired in these companies for diversity, equity and inclusion efforts. And then they're paraded around like these token trophies and they're told that they're doing amazing things, that these companies and they're in all the photos and they're in all of the panels. And of course, they're asked to do a ton of service work to try to raise diversity, inclusion efforts at these companies, which is a whole other problem. But then the second that they actually do the thing that they were hired to do, which in this case for Tamny was to point out problems with bias and ethics and concerns with machine learning and AI algorithms, the second that they do what they were hired to do, then, if it's not in compliance with the company's overall PR mission, they're immediately hushed and I guess in the worst place, even fired and hugely discriminated against. So it's definitely speaking to a much larger issue that's happening in general in the tech field.

But then just in the workplace and this is a systemic issue. This is an economic issue. But, you know, this is like this gets to the heart of why it's so impossible for people to make change, because in these massive systems and, you know, I don't know, you know, Jeff or any of the other managers to be able to say, you know, these are bad people. Are people acting in bad faith. Right. But even if we say that these are good people acting in good faith. Right.

The way that this has happened shows a blatant disrespect to Timna and to her team right at Google who are doing the jobs that Google has ostensibly hired them to do, which means that for all that Google is talking about, you know, these checklists of ethics are all they're talking about with these visions of diversity, inclusion, when the rubber meets the road and they have people who are working, you know, 90 hour weeks to make this happen, they don't actually want it. Right. So it's one thing to be able to speak the jargon. It's another thing to actually be able to give resources which to their credit, they were doing. But then through this, I mean, all of that goodwill that they've built up through this team that, you know, Tony has had to build over so many years and jump through so many hoops in order to have the amazing team that she does have or did have, like the fact that this is the way that part of that ends, or at least her journey at Google after all of that work ends is just for me, is just blatantly disrespectful at best. Right. And discriminatory at worst.

Of course, all of this is to say that things right now are looking a little bit bleak. And we at radical A.I. and also just as a part of the ethics community, are hoping to help support efforts that are looking to make things better, which is actually why we thought this week the episode and the interview with Moses would be the perfect beacon of light or maybe silver lining with what's happening to let everyone know that there are. Really great opportunities for people who are feeling a little bit down and hopeless right now and we completely understand everyone who's feeling that way, and we're here to support you and to stand in solidarity with you. But for those who are looking to maybe be a little bit uplifted and looking for opportunities that are really, we think, making amazing efforts to help with diversity, equity and inclusion efforts in a real sense, not just in a PR sense, then we are just so thrilled to talk about some of the amazing programs that Black and I as an organization has implemented to really help with some of these awful issues of racism and discrimination in the tech and in the FBI field as a whole. And one final note before we jump into the interview. We just wanted to thank everyone in this community for being incredibly supportive and for speaking out. And if you are looking to get involved or to help support Tim Nete through what is happening, we have provided some resources, including a an open letter that you can sign in the show notes.

So we encourage you to go look at those after you have finished listening to our interview with Moses Nimura of Black in Ehi and Moses Nimura is a Facebook research fellow and PhD candidate in human centered computing at Clemson University. He uses interdisciplinary research methods from computer science, psychology and the social sciences to understand the principles behind users, adoption and use of technology, decision making and privacy, attitudes and behaviors. His research interests are in the field of usable privacy and security and human computer interaction. We hope you enjoy this interview.

We are here on the line today with Moses. Moses, thank you for joining us. Thank you for having me. Absolutely. And we're here to talk specifically about the Black and I academic program. And for people who haven't heard about it at all, can you just give us the one on one about what it is?

Yeah, the black academic program is a part of the Black Eye Group that focuses on the academic aspects of all black students, especially within the field of AI. But it also extends to computer science in general for those who are interested. We start from offering what we call the graduate education mentorship program. This is a program that basically. Guides prospective graduate students through the application process. The key thing here being that we link them with mentors in this case, either the students or faculty members who can then give them one on one advice in terms of how to go about the application and demystify the whole process.

Further along that line is we have a new program in the pipeline which then focuses on once they become students up to the first grade level, making sure that there's a community that supports them through that process, the people that they can interact with and seek advice and also demystify the application process, which becomes the next step after that, not only faculty, but also industry at some point.

So can you unpack a little bit of the inner workings of this academic program and for students who are interested in being a part of it? What can they expect to get out of it? And how can they hope to apply or join it?

So I would start with the workings of the program so I could basically do for each academic year. Right now we are in the twenty twenty two twenty point one application process. We have cohorts for each of those years. What we do is we we we send out interest solicitations to our members.

So people have to be a part of the group. They join the party. That is that is a separate process joining the block in that group. And so what we do is then we send out to send out, I mean, solicitations for people who are interested in the process around. Typically, we try to date around August, September around there, which I was trying to get our timing right.

And then once the show interest, we what we then do is. Of them sending their resumes, singing their interests, make the foods they want to study, we also have them take us through how prepared they have. They done the journey. They already know some schools have already checked out. Which countries are they thinking about applying to just to basically get a general sense of their interests, their academic background or research program. And once we get that in, we then at the same time reach out to mentors. So mentors of the students or faculty who are interested in being matched up with these students. We best get used to the same school that you are in the topic.

The two that you're studying or that you're teaching.

And if you have the time and the capacity to actually take on students for mentorship around average, around two to three students on average, and then when those when we get those in, we basically then kind of do the matching. Right now we do it so human. Who does it? It's us who is a team. We'll sit down and go through these applications and try to see who would be the best mentor. Once that is done, we then send out emails notifying the students that, hey, this is your mentor, you should reach in touch, we'll do the same for the mental site. Now, above and beyond that, we have what they call information sessions, which is basically now on an open call for people who can join joining unions in the information session.

So it's basically a session where anybody can join in, but most especially the students who are interested in applying for grad school and kind of come together within a general information session and get and get acquainted with the process from we usually select speakers or faculty members who have who are who actually review these applications. All the students who have recently gone through the process. And so they share information through that information session along. So the information sessions are arranged depending on the stages which students are. So initially it's how do they write how do they write a personal statement or how do they identify which school or, you know, those types of questions. But as and then the next information session would look at making sure you're meeting the deadlines and stuff like that.

Could you tell us a little bit about how and why this initiative started?

The reason is that it is me and we.

I go to an already wonderful Facebook for what I powered and that kind of, you know, protests as acquaintances, but which stemmed from this theory that the pipeline is broken, whereby the few black students who end up coming into grad school and as a result, you know, there is nobody to. There's nobody to hire because the pipeline is broken, and so another thing that motivated us is that, for example, last year when you had about 20 black students across the US graduate with PhDs, that is a very miniscule number compared to other people. And so we me and came on set together based on our own experiences of thinking, OK, how did we end up in the in the grad school system? And what was difficult joining that and what we found is that when we shared similar experiences whereby when we were planning to actually join grad school, we had we had people who were either done grad school who kind of. Torch to the park or the one hundred along the way, we didn't we just missed, you know, it wasn't just a one day thing that popped out of nowhere.

It was actually seeing someone who was done. It was going through the process and giving you that motivation to actually take you through the process, making sure that you. You know you know how to write a personal statement or a research statement, whatever the case is. And so we then decided to come together and make it kind of creative scale that and make it a formal program in which people like us could go through that process.

And you mentioned that you already have both. Explain that. Are you talked about how the pipeline is broken? I'm curious if you can maybe explore that a little bit and explain in what ways is it broken and in what ways did you experience that brokenness?

You know, it's when people say that the pipeline is broken, what it basically means is that there aren't enough black people to hire who have the essential skills to be hired for a role or a job.

And therefore, even if we wanted to hire people, we actually don't have anybody to hire. Right.

And so then what? That's what that's what that brought us to, to thinking. Is that, OK, how do we demystify this or address the issue of the pipeline being broken? How do we increase opportunities for others and bring them into into the field, especially as a new field that is emerging with the societal repercussions? If we don't think about other groups, we may not necessarily be to be involved in the development process of these systems. Right.

And so when we what we find is that most people usually have graduate degrees, and yet there are few black people who actually end up applying for grad school, even if they have done undergrad. Right. And so the reason we came to Canada and how to address that issue, how do we increase that higher turnout of students finally applying and getting into grad school?

And you mentioned your own story also kind of compelled you to do this work. Would you mind sharing some of that story and why this work is so important to you?

Yeah, the the the work is important to me because.

One used to increase opportunity for others who look like me and not be the only one doing X or not being the first one who does X.

And so it's that desire to kind of reflect and pass on what they pass on the baton, you know, so that was the best one motivation.

But the other is also to. I remember when I was trying to apply for grad school and I went to a graduate director and I faced the questions that I was asked were discouraging. He wasn't he wasn't from a position of encouraging me to actually go make saying, you know, you made up for this role. And maybe if you actually do apply, you can make it.

He was from the perspective that I had succeeded by me reaching graduate or surpassing the undergrad level.

I had so superseded what most black people could have done. And so I should be satisfied with that achievement. And therefore that was enough in terms of my own aspirations and so I could go off and do other things. And so so it got me thinking that maybe that's not only me who faces these kinds of roadblocks along the way.

And so he was also hard getting the right information in terms of should I be a master? Should should I stay in the same kind of great institution or should I change to another maybe academic institution? What are the advantages and disadvantages? There wasn't an organized avenue through which I could get some of these questions answered. And so it felt like a learning process. And it was a process that I felt like if if if it was if it was a group of us and what went through, it would have been much better.

So so that's that's one. The other is also just the financial hydros in terms of issues such as the euro is expensive and most schools. And so most people end up spending out of money trying to do it. And over again, just make sure they have the right grades and all others end up being discouraged just because they don't have the financial capability to do that. So trying to you if you want to address some of these systematic controls, you know, you better doing it as a group than an individual. And so that's why we come together, organized under the blocking academic program to try and one shed more light on some of these barriers, but also find or advocate for change in terms of how these academic admissions about and you mentioned the mentorship program multiple times now, which is related to but different than the academic program.

And I'm curious, Moses, in your experience in this post grad world.

Do you have a specific story or a memory of a time when you either were mentored by someone or you mentor to someone yourself where it made a lasting impression on you?

Yeah, I was certainly having been mentored.

So when I was an undergrad, a I don't know what pushed me, but I joined the research, the research lab and I went to University of Maryland and there was a professor called Dr. Michelle Music. And so I think I got to know that I was going to take a class in the next semester. And then when I took out and the website, it said, hey, I'm looking for students. You know, if you're interested in research opportunities, I never knew what research was. So I decided to go to Harvard and say, hey, you know, looks like you're calling you're looking for students. I would be happy to work on some research and figure out what that is. And so for me, that's kind of what opened my my eyes to grad school, because after that, it's like, okay, what makes what comes up to me is like I've enjoyed doing this for more research. How do I continue if I wanted to kind of become an expert at it? And so, you know, she acted as my mentor, as someone who could guide me, but also having supportive parents who knew what I've been going to school and I've done grad for themselves. You know, just having them, as people would say, you can do it. You have to have the capability to do it.

So for me, that's my unique situation in terms of mentoring others. Of course, I'm not with the student, the student about at the beginning of the end, but through the process, once I joined, I've had people reach out multiple times to me just to have one on one.

Tell them how, because my experience with my grad school experience, I have refreshed them to to people who who are better. If I find I can't maybe answer some of the questions.

I just to have these connections with people you can connect them to or even having telling them about your own experience and if the opportunities where you are. For me, this is one way for me to others to to join grad school.

Hmm.

Could you talk to us a little bit about your own research? Like, what are you what are you working on right now? That's a good question.

I, I work on online privacy issues to do with online privacy, specifically looking at how do we make the privacy decision making process better or easier for for for people, but also as technology increasingly becomes more prevalent and most of the technologies that people get to adopt are really huge holes for personal use. It better how to privacy concerns then factor in in terms of what people inside use appropriate to use and not to use. So I look at technology, adoption and how privacy affects that. And basically we with the goal of one. Understanding, understanding the motivation behind, but also addressing finding solutions to how you improve that process and ensure that people's privacy is protected.

So going back to your story a little bit, then, what got you interested in going into this field and in HCI in general?

Yeah, so so, yeah, it was was from that research experience that I had at undergraduate. To be honest, this is the type of work she was doing and the professor was doing and the lab was doing, and to me it seemed cool at the time. And then. And as with anything else, you at that point in time, what I do know, what I wanted to be wanted to focus on, and so I was just basically trying to find out what interests what do you enjoy now or what do I find since find enough to wake up in the morning and be able to enjoy doing it. And so it would make it through that experience kind of landed me in this area that I'm currently doing.

A few months ago when we interviewed one of the founders of Black III, Dr. Tim Negahban, she talked a lot about international perspectives in both in terms of privacy, but also just in general and how, you know, when she went to NRPs for the first time, you know, she was one of maybe like 18 black scholars there and how that community is grown. And I'm curious from your perspective in this international space, maybe specifically about the the academic program, have you seen folks from across the world become part of the academic programs and the mentorship programs in addition to the U.S.?

Yeah, yeah. I actually I use my degree to on my international applicants McGarrity from Africa or. And so so what we then realized is, OK, I think we should strike a balance between people who are far away from here originally and also people from from from the international, uh, um, international countries.

So we yes, we have seen our huge we have a huge number of Africans. Internationally, and they're not only applying to come to the US, but to go to Europe, to go to universities within Africa, universities in Asia. Of course, the high number being know Europe and Canada. But we see that we see interest from and especially within these countries, especially from Africa.

We see a lot of students who. I found this program useful because ideally then they wouldn't.

We didn't get to talk to people who actually end up making some big decisions.

I just bring that mentorship one on one matching, having someone talk to you about you, how to structure your statement or which programs are a good fit for you.

Yes, that information alone is usually enlightening, but it's also equally beneficial for the mentors to learn how to mentor people who are not like them, learn the academic systems of other countries so that you can make a good informed decision in terms of if you get an opinion from maybe Nigeria and you're not familiar with how the university system works over there through this program, having interacted with people from there before, you kind of already have an idea or you start to develop an idea or good sense or Republicans in that area. So I feel like it's a win win for all of us. And the recent movements that have happened to that, somehow we've seen a lot of universities now pick it up, pick it up, university departments take it upon themselves to actually have these kinds of program programs where they try to, you know, mentor people into potential prospective applicants.

Yeah, I'm just still struck by that number that you gave towards the beginning of this interview where last year there were 20 black students who graduated. And that just I mean, to me, just like there's something deeply sick about that system where that's the case, where the number in the ratio is just like so off. And for folks besides, I guess outside of this mentorship program and this the academic program at Black and I like what do we what can we do about that? What do we do as like almost systemically to address some of those issues?

Yeah. So yeah, we were screening, screening. We count them 20 for black students. And then more surprising is that you have eighty five black faculty in science or computer engineering departments.

So. So how do we do that. First of all, that already shows you that that's something that needs to be addressed. One is to be intentional about it.

Well, I think historically we've been, uh, you know, let the chips fall where they fall. You know, we raise the student who finally are finding their way.

But what we forget is that people like us face different have different barriers as compared to people who might be different.

And so if you as a faculty member, you are in you a director of a lab with the University of Iowa and University, for example. And within since you started your you your faculty, you've never.

Had anybody was different from you, you've never mentored someone, we never spoke someone is different from this is your opportunity to actually be intentional about it and say, hey, I'm looking for the best black student from X. How can I find that student right now? If you if you if you reach out to us, we help you to make those connections because we have a. Very good students, good, good experience, good music experience, and, yes, people who are looking for the opportunity to apply their skills. So one I think is intentionality being interesting about it and knowing it's not going to happen by chance.

If you if you're interested in that kind of stuff, then you have to do is to create opportunities where they're not. So.

Even if you don't have a position on your lab in your lab, how can you make that connection? So if I reached out to you, be able to connect me to someone who might be able to help me, you know, being able to you know, you may not necessarily be in a position to help, but you might be in the position to make a connection that may be turning out to be more fruitful later. Yeah, I think those are some of the quick things that come to mind in terms of how people can connect.

You know, do you think that this is a solution space that exists mostly in higher education and within academia, in universities? Or do you think that this is something where there might also be some solutions in, I guess like K through 12 education and just outside of the academic bubble in general?

I don't think it exists outside of the academic bubble. I think it's it's because one on one, it's not only at the higher level. It has to begin down to the. Kindergarten level through 12 level, because that's the know, that's the whole pipeline, as people like to put it. One thing that I like to think about is you use tat's. If you if you if you want to if you want to help, it has to start at that level. When someone is young, you can only help someone when still in a position to be helped. Right. And usually the most impactful years, actually, those.

K through 12 years, because that's when we observe observing information, we are growing, we are still looking out for opportunities and so making sure that barriers along the way, I kind of agree.

And then people have the flexibility to actually. Successfully maneuvered through this process because you cannot get to graduate level without being on the ground. You cannot get to that being high school or you cannot do high school and middle school and so on and so on. And so it has to start at that level to four four, four four to eventually come out of the top. So for an example, at that level, I think things like after school programs are really critical because parents are working two or three jobs that may not necessarily be there to supervise people as they should when someone walks and stuff like that. So those afterschool programs would be really then be important in terms of trying to keep children out of trouble, but also kind of at the same time supplementing them with additional skills that they can use to improve on the school. So it's a it's a it's something that really has to start from a young age, sometimes in an at least activist spaces that I've been in.

There's kind of like two ways, sometimes two ways to think about changing a system.

One, you either work within it, or two, you get rid of it and try to start over. And it definitely seems like in this space there's much more of a we have a system, it's broken. We're going to try to change it and acknowledge that it's broken, but do the work to change it and not so much that we need to throw the entire thing out.

And I'm wondering if you just have thoughts about that dichotomy. That's the old one.

Yeah, I mean, this is a system that has been there for a long time, so it will be to be very difficult to just throw them all of it out and start afresh. But what we can do, as you listed, is try to now recognize what are the what are the implicit biases that exist and what are the implicit barriers that, you know, and unintentionally or intentionally have put in place that we we can do our way without and try to increase opportunity for people. An example is the year is really important, but something still debatable.

Does it dictate how someone is going to be a successful or unsuccessful candidate, graduate candidate? That's debatable. But when you look at it is something that actually stops the majority of students from applying that, as our research has shown that most people, once they look through their website and see what are the requirements of the transcript, you need a gear, you need a personal statement. OK, what's the degree?

It's some tests that you must by it's just that you must take for you to be able then to be one of the requirements for every one of the requirements for how much is it or two hundred dollars. But that's when we're going to get 200 students right at home. I don't have anybody within my community or my support system that can be able to give me that money. So then then someone's ambitions stop just because they couldn't afford the 200 bucks. So some schools do, Wavell, some don't. And so we then have to ask ourselves, is this something that we want to as do we know where we live? And so.

That's how you change the system, I think we've seen from from the inside and just removing some of those barriers or extra.

Hopes that were put in place to keep people out, so I'm wondering if you can provide some advice here for both sides of the spectrum.

So on the one side, I'm wondering if you have advice for students at any level of education who are looking for mentorship in this space outside of, of course, the programs that we outlined from Black and II today. And then on the other side, I'm wondering if you have advice for people who have the capacity to mentor and what you would tell them.

Yeah, well, I mean, you know, with the students, I think. One is that it's challenging, it's going to be it's a challenging process or a journey, if you want to call it that, while academics, academics are boring.

Someone, someone, someone famously told me. And that's why if it were easy, everyone would be doing them right. Everyone would be doing so. It's a tough journey and you have to persevere. And so the question becomes, how would you possibly want is to be seeking, seeking out people who have done it and learning from the experience to give you that morale boost that you can actually make it for those who have stuck through the process that finally made it. And that should give you the courage that you will also make it for those that have failed and have given up. You know, they haven't been as uncertain, especially in terms of the academic. Well, in terms of academic journey, they have been unsuccessful. And so you want to you want to be you want to be that person who. Six for hope when you know you need it and don't be afraid to. Going to be is this I don't know what I find imposter syndrome, especially within instinct, the fear of. Being blown out of the water as a fraud or being seen as someone who's who doesn't know who's not an expert, I think we have to get over that syndrome and know that each and each one and every one of us has to start from somewhere. And the way we do it is one is by reaching out to people who know more more than you do and to just to walk on your own, walk on your own, you know, perseverance.

If you need to fall for the mentorship side, you be Querns conjugation of the backgrounds of the people you're mentoring.

Well, first of all, I'd be interested in mentoring. Don't just because it's fashionable if you're doing it, because it's the fashion and we're saying please don't, because you'll make it worse for the community. And so the second is to be interested and try to empathize with the person you're mentoring. They may not be as professional as you'd want them to be. They may not be as eloquent as you used to try to see how you can help them to the best of your ability. And one is to, first of all, know the above ground where they're coming from or what do they like and they like.

What's more, what challenges that they face. And do they have what do they have an international stable Internet connection which would make video calls possible or not understand their situation?

Sometimes it can be difficult, sometimes they can't, maybe text and so on emails to make what is the best communication strategy that you can have with them.

And then how do you offer feedback? How would you actually mentor some people who may not need they may not need the. A lot of heavy lifting, some people might do, and if you have the capacity to do the heavy lifting and you do it, if you don't, you know.

Don't feel ashamed to say that they the do is one and saying, hey. OK, any other time I would have to you, but I'm you know, right now, I'm so happy to be able to take on another student or another. I'm going to I have a lot of things that I'm dealing with. But, you know, there's someone x these just that I know maybe you can talk about and see if she has the capacity to take you on something like that.

And then I'm thinking of folks who write into our show and say, hey, we're white. We are like we as the listener were white. We were well intentioned. We want to do something in this space. We don't really know what our places in this. For those folks who make up the majority and have a level of privilege in these academic spaces. Do you have any particular pieces of advice maybe to for them to be able to make room?

Yeah. Um. One is to understand what I understand, that you're privileged, right? Not everybody has the opportunities that you have.

And so recognizing that, I think is, first of all, the most easily the most important thing to understand. And so so then once you recognize that, you know, you're coming from a position of privilege, how do you.

Come off, you know, in terms of you, you're seeking out for four if you're seeking out, reaching out to help people, you want to be to know that.

Don't believe to them I would say, you know, you want to read from a good place and and and people are always receptive to that.

If you come in as someone who's imposing, saying, hey, I.

You know, I think you should do X and Y because, you know, that's the way it has always been done and you don't know and they know more than you. And, you know, people are not going to take it in a good way.

I think for me, what in my own experience, what I've seen from people who are privileged is the language that they use on to them. Is it is it is they can they can speak because maybe they're speaking from their own experience. But then then when they speak, because, of course, for you, you also have your own experience. Some of the speech may not really align or may not come off in terms of the way they intended or something like that.

So I think one uses to, you know, be cautious in terms of how you communicate, how you reach out to people and how you want to help them.

Once you actually how are you going to be able to stand up for them once you bring them on board, or are you willing to help address some of the challenges or some of the challenges that they face when you bring them on board, or are you just going to bring them on board and then leave them to figure out their own way?

And maybe that may not surface depending on the situation, but. You know, you speak from a good place, I think is my my my simple answer to that is if you want to help from a good place, don't talk from one point to despise or despair.

And Moses, as we reach the closing of this interview, for those listeners who are looking to get involved in Black and I and in the academic program, what are these specific next steps that they should be taking right now?

Yeah. So for the buccaneer, if you go to Facebook, I mean, I have a page or group on there, you can join the group from there. You should you should be able to go to our website where you can formally it's a membership Google form that you're feeling. And once you approved, you're doing you're doing the group where we are then able to share resources, various resources. And it's within that group that we we send out depending on the usually sent out in October, September, we send out people who send emails for people who are interested in applying to grad school. It is a group that.

So so right now we have about two thousand five hundred members on this group is both allies and members are going to have to be left to join.

You can be an ally.

We so far have about a thousand. I mean, one thousand eight hundred and fifty black members. And so so it's a growing group that is growing. And they need to be able to form community labor to form a support resource.

We're able to do other things like collaborate with each other and also support people who want to go to conferences like rapes and something like awesome.

And also for those who are maybe looking to get in contact with youth specifically or take a look at your research a little bit more in depth for is the best place for them to go.

I have a website.

You know, if you type in Google my name, it should be the first one that pops up. But I'm on Twitter, as in a IMSA or. In a MCO zero nine eight zero zero nine eight, I'm on Facebook when my name is Mogensen Amaro, my email is this in optimism, but I'm always happy to to respond to two emails that are seeking for guidance.

And we'll make sure to link those in the show notes as well. Moses, thank you so much for joining us today. All right. Thank you for having me. Disemboweling.

A huge thank you to Moses for joining us today and for all of the work that he and Black and I are doing to support junior scholars and junior researchers for our Oshiro today, we really just want to highlight how awesome this program is that they have. And so if you are in the black in the community, and especially if you're a junior researcher or a junior scholar or just looking for some mentorship, please reach out to Moses or follow the links that we've put in the show notes.

For more information on today's show, please visit the episode page at Radical IG. As always, if you enjoyed this episode, we invite you to subscribe rate and review the show on iTunes or your favorite podcast to catch our new episodes every week on Wednesdays, join our conversation on Twitter at Radical iPod and as always, stay radical.

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