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Welcome to Radical AI, a podcast about radical ideas, radical people and radical stories at the intersection of ethics and artificial intelligence. We are your hosts, Dylan and Jess.

In this episode, we interview Yeshi Milner, the co-founder and executive director of Data for Black Lives, raised in Miami, Florida. Yeshi began organizing against the school to prison pipeline at Power Youth Center for Social Change. As a high school senior there, she developed a lifelong commitment to movement building as a vehicle for creating and sustaining large scale social change. More recently, yeshi was a campaign manager at Color of Change, where she spearheaded several major national initiatives, including organized for the only online petition platform dedicated to building the political voice of black people.

In our interview with Yeshi, we talk about data for black lives, what it is, why it matters, and how people can take action to respond to current events. We want to personally thank you she for her leadership and vision for an equitable world using data as a tool for social change. And without further ado, we are so excited to share with all of you. This interview with Yushi Milnor.

Yes. Thank you so much for taking the time today to come and chat with us on the show.

Thank you for having me.

Can you start off by maybe explaining a bit about what data for Black Lives is and really what motivated you to found this organization?

Yes, sure. Well, data for Black Lives. We're a movement of scientists and activist. And our mission, in very brief terms, is to make data a tool for social change instead of a weapon of political oppression. And we do that in a number of ways, you know, through movement, building activities, through political advocacy, through research. And, you know, we started data for Black Lives in November of twenty seventeen with a conference at the M.I.T. Media Lab. But really a lot of the inspiration and the drive and the vision around the work came from, you know, started for me as early as high school. The very first time I ever even collected data was after some young people that I knew that I went to elementary school with, in middle school with, but went to another high school that was technically my home. School, according to my address, had organized a peaceful protest, actually, in response to a vice principal putting a student in a chokehold. And, you know, this was like 27, 2007, 2008. You know, we had like phone cameras, but like we just were very grainy. But, yes, students, you know, kind of trying to lean on non-violent tactics and practices. And that philosophy said, OK, this is really the straw that broke the camel's back. Let's organize this peaceful protest. Let's all convene in the cafeteria again. I went to a different school, but, you know, I knew people who went there. My sister had gone there and had a few best friends.

And, you know, sadly, instead of the school district, the school principal, the city of Miami, recognizing what these young people were doing is like being leaders, you know, having their voices heard. They actually ended up sending in SWAT teams, police cars, dozens of police cars. And it was insane. Like I remember being at home and watching on CNN, like students riot at Miami Edison Senior High. And if anybody is listening, you can actually go on YouTube right now and just Google Eddison like Riot, my riot at Miami Edison and you'll see the video. It was crazy. I mean, literally like hearing about what was happening at, you know, seeing the seeing the damage. Like people like young people that I went to elementary school being slammed against police cars. You know, I was just like, wow. Like unless we found other ways of getting our voices heard, you know, that, could it? Yes. Direct action and protests absolutely is important. Obviously, we're in a moment now. It's important. But, you know, we like unless we did that like our lives, especially for young people, like would continue to be under assault and it's stake. And, you know, I got involved with an organization called Power You Center for Social Change. And we hit the ground running and I'm surveying students. Right. We we asked over 600 students about their experiences with arrests, with suspensions, with police brutality in schools.

And we actually turned those findings into a comic book. And, you know, our thing was that we were pushing to end the school to prison pipeline, which is defined as like practices and policies that to criminalize young people. And it's really this thing of like, OK. You know, things that used to be solved with a phone call home. You know, people getting literally kicked out of school for expelled or even worse, arrested. And, you know, it was amazing to even survey other young people my age who were dealing with the same things as me and literally saying, like, the light will go off in their head. We're like, oh, I'm not a bad kid because I got suspended or I was sent home for not having my school I.D. or, you know, not having it, you know, having the wrong color t shirt under my uniform because of, like, gang prevention laws or whatever, that I let that, you know, like said that like if you're like different color. It's crazy. Anything to criminalize in any way. So, you know, really realizing it. No, like, I'm not bad necessarily at at all. Right. Like this isn't this is a citywide problem. This is a state wide problem. It's a national issue. It's all in it's called the school to prison pipeline. And most importantly, there's groups and there's people in the city and in this country that are working for solutions such as restorative justice, which is what we were pushing.

And, you know, it took us a while. It wasn't until I came back to Miami after college that we got some traction in getting restorative justice implemented in the schools. But, you know, it was amazing to see this comic book that we made right. As a way to make this data accessible and impactful, like literally traveled the world. I traveled the country like students in communities in St. Louis and in in New Orleans and in Oakland and in Denver who are facing some similar policies. Again, these these are national policies. Clinton crime bill type. Stuff. Who also didn't have any data to talk about it really being able to use it for their own campaign work in their own organizing in anyway after. Like, that was my senior year. I then went to college. I went to browed. And my whole focus in college was to get as many skills as possible in data collection, research, bio stats. I mean, I like hustled my way into like all of the graduate level classes just because I was like, there's a such an urgent need on the ground in my community for these kind of skills, especially in a place where we're systematically disenfranchised, have no political power. How can we elevate some of these issues, whether it was school, you know, school to prison pipeline, police brutality, gentrification, whatever, and graduated from Brown. I went back to Miami and went back to the same organization.

But this time I had a whole other opportunity. And was very different. Right. I had I had been asked to come on at the very end of a campaign that had been going on for four years. The audition power you we were in a financial peril. We we had we almost had to close our doors. Like a lot of Blacklight organizations that were doing work at that time. And our last grant was around this grant around for Robert Wood Johnson. And it was funding a campaign to address black infant mortality. And, you know, our way of thinking about it was looking at breastfeeding as a form of racial justice. And, you know, women in the community, families knew that, you know, black babies were three times more likely to die before their first birthday. And we knew that, you know, even though, like research, you know, at large was saying that it's hard to understand why a black mom with 14 years of education has like lower like has worse maternal health outcomes and a white mom with a high school education. But we knew. Right. And I think one intervention point was in the hospitals. Our public hospital was the largest public hospital in the country by beds. And, you know, everyone knew that if you send your your your family members into go have give birth, a lot of times they wouldn't even come back out alive just because of how, you know, it was a really racist and often brutal environment, whether it was the overuse of procedures like caesarean section versus natural birth or, you know, aggressive marketing of infant formula after birth, all these other things anyway.

So it was a similar situation. You know, I had no idea that breastfeeding an infant formula was so political. I was twenty two when I was a feminist, but I had no clue what any of this stuff. It was such a learning curve. But, you know, I kind of relied on these skills that I had. I said, OK. You know, part of this grant is for us to finish this survey. We surveyed only three hundred moms and asked them about their experiences in hospitals, including our public hospitals. We were able to put to work with data scientist at Loyola Marymount University who do participatory action. And while I was on the ground and leading research, having that extra capacity to to run regressions and do important analysis, I wrote a report called A Call A Call for Birth Justice in Miami. And we got like one Miami Herald article. But that was enough. Right. Literally after years and certainly before I came of even trying to get the hospital's attention, you know, we were able to get a meeting and they totally revamped all their policies, even fired staff, changed the whole change, everything except that all of our policy recommendations and demands and, you know, let's be real like, you know, I could it you know, maybe I couldn't bring in 300 black moms and Latino moms and for moms into the meeting with me in the hospital, CEO and staff.

But they couldn't deny the data that they collected. But I think most importantly, like, you know, it's important to say that if even though, you know, it shouldn't have taken three, that that even that like one baby dying should have been enough for them to take action. But, you know, either way, it was really important for me to see how really rigorous and, you know, powerful committee level data collection research, but most importantly, organizing leadership development and a whole slew of strategies and tactics were our words were so impactful in moving the needle on an issue that is still having amazing, you know, results and having an impact today. And, you know, after Miami might my experience in Miami, I went on to Color of Change Dawg, which is the nation's largest civil rights organization. My job there was to launch the first online petition platform for black people called Color of Change. I'm sorry. Organized forward. I had all these connections and an amazing relationship with the folks that I made there. My life. Life as an organizer. You know, in fact, while this breastfeeding campaign was going on, that's when George Zimmerman was acquitted. And we all also like we also took over the state capitol in protest and in occupied it for 31 days.

So it was so much going on and going and going to color change with. Was a great way to actually lean more into the data and take the amazing playbook of digital tactics that they had created and literally putting it into hands of organizations and individuals all over the country. I mean, my first one there, we stopped the prison from being built in San Francisco. But either way, you know, I realized I had all these amazing experiences where I saw and was able to reclaim data, you know, in a laboratory way, like, ah, one of our slogans, Data for Black Lives as data, as protest data is Accountability Data's collective action. I saw that. But at the same time, this is 2016 election. You know, there was also so much more awareness and realization around how data was being weaponized historically and in the present moment. Right. WISC assessments, FICA credit scores, automated decision making system for policing algorithms. Right. And I realized, how do we change the culture around data? How do we reclaim data as a tool? And what does that look like? And putting my kind of organizer hat on? You know, I said, OK, I have I know so many people in this world of activism and movement building, you know, who are working in cities all across the country, had been moving the needle in the trenches, pushing from really important work.

But I also note so, so many data scientists, mathematicians, folks I met in college, people in the tech space, might, you know, Lucas, who helped me start the organization, he was getting his Piech dean math at M.I.T. and I said, OK, well, what would it look like for us to break down the silos between black communities and activist communities and data scientists and bring them together? And, you know, so I you know, I had the idea for data for Black Lives and I said, let me experiment and see if this idea has traction. And we you know, my litmus test was hosting this conference at M.I.T. and, you know, once it's sold out, I was like, OK, wow. Like, this is an idea whose time has come. This is something that people are really interested in. It's needed. And, you know, three years later, two sold out conferences. And I mean, I have to go back to our membership base, but found over 10000 data scientists and activists and daily growing, you know, you know, hubs all over the country work on Facebook, accountability all the way to local work around big data in cities like Minneapolis. You know, it's amazing to see how how much we we've been able to do and most importantly, how we've been able to push data as a tool. Right. And to really change the narrative and also empower people in an important way.

And it seems like the momentum has has just continued. And obviously we're recording this right now. And on June 3rd, which is about a week and a half after May 25th, which is when George Floyd was murdered in Minneapolis. And protests have come out and riots have come out across the country. And we are seeing your organization being tagged quite a bit on on Twitter. And I know there's a lot of folks that are reaching out to you. And I'm wondering right now how your organization is interacting with the world around us. And also what questions you're receiving from the public data for black lives.

Yeah, that's a great question. I think. In terms of how we. Well, let's start with questions. I think it's exciting to see that people want to know how they can be involved, in particular data scientists. It's been exciting to be some part of some really important conversations that are even happening in Silicon Valley. I think people are ready to walk the talk in a way that's important. And I think it's great to see more and more folks from local communities in black communities being like, hey, how can we use data in an important way? But, you know, in terms of how we're responding, we're really building on work that we've been already doing in Minneapolis. I mean, I remember one of the first idea, you know, when I was still with even everything that we've done has been like my own little experiments around whether it's the conference or different programs. And I said, let me see what kind of how we can be like, how can we engage with groups locally? And one of the first things that we ever did was when folks from Minneapolis had reached out to me a couple about a year and a half couple years ago and said, hey, yes, she we're a group of educators, parents, students, researchers, and, you know, Ramsey County Sheriff Department, which is St. Paul's sheriff, you, St. Paul, Minneapolis, the Twin Cities, the foster care agencies, the school districts, all of these different agencies and organizations had announced this joint powers agreement that would share data across the agency's for the purpose of creating risk ratios.

People in the community may not know what algorithms or predictive analytics or big data necessarily is. But, you know, we know that in the context of, you know, the school to prison pipeline in Minneapolis, Twin Cities, as I wrote it in a medium post, our solidarity statement is literally the fourth worst place for black people to live because of inequality and a long history of that. You know, in this city where if L.A. Castillo was murdered with impunity, like we know this is this is gonna be negative. So I came down to Minneapolis St. Paul and I helped community members like I kind of translated a lot of it, reframed it, talk about risk, talk about risk ratios, talked about my experience, what at what what what being called an at risk youth meant and how these these whether it's super predator myth and all these different ideas are now being baked into these algorithms and that totally, you know, propel them into such amazing organizing and coalition building under the they call the coalition, the coalition to end this a cradle to prison algorithm, which I think is an amazing name. And they won. Right. The city totally dissolved the plan. And I had been in connection with those leaders, brought them to our conference space, and now they are starting their own data for public good organization.

And when everything started happening, I immediately reached out and I said, hey, you know, how can we support what's going on? And, you know, whether it's doing a really targeted fund raising around making sure that some of the youth leaders have space, is there for healing, for organizing and for restorative justice, sending down, you know, reporters to go meet with them directly and talk about on the technology and the data side, but also on on the education and police brutality side. But, you know, even yesterday, getting some good news that, you know, I get a call saying that they're all getting ready to go to a rally and after five years of fighting, literally fight over five years of fighting to get police out of schools. There was going to be a vote that day in getting a call later that evening saying, hey, you know, it was actually a unanimous vote. You know, Minneapolis Public Schools and Minneapolis police department that, you know, have totally dissolved and ended the contract. There'll be no guilt will be normal. Normal police in Minneapolis public schools. And that just being like, okay, wow. Right. You know, and I think for us, that's the model for our work. Right. Like, I don't live in Minneapolis, but how do we through data, through leadership development, through empowering people, through using our platform, through connecting them with data scientists, through you know, we also have a hub there.

That's all data scientists that's working on different data projects. And we're going to have a movement pulse check next week where folks are going to talk more into detail. And I want to make sure that, you know, folks can go on to do for Bill Dorgan, sign up and then get on the back to speak. But, yeah. You know, I think that's how for us, it's like supporting folks locally in Atlanta Hub. There's a lot going on right where there has been so much of a lot of our hub leaders actually work for the CDC. They are there. They've been bailing people out since Cauvin. Right. And it's it's absolutely escalated. How do we support, you know, folks in terms of data, in terms of stuff around surveillance? It's happening, but also in what kind of a political strategy and data like tactical data that can be used around demands like getting, you know, the the May or Keesha items to resign. Right. Which is a big ask that folks are pushing. In Boston, there's a lot of different demands that are being. Uplifted now, so that's how I'm seeing it. You know, our response being coordinated and it's all about saying, yes, we're a national organization, but our focus is that, you know, I've always said that there's no national without local and how do we do that? And I think on a larger basis, it's right.

How are we contextualizing this? You know, a lot of what's happening. Yes. It's about these isolated to put, you know, examples and stories of police killings. But it's also, you know, just the everyday terror of extreme income inequality, like chronic poverty and erasure. Right. And that's really what's going on. And that's why people are taking to the streets. And that's why there's so much frustration. It's also, I think, an opportunity for folks who had been doing this groundwork to really shift and move and to make move the needle on some at and and win big victories. You're on as ask that that had been made for a really long time. So that's what we're focused on. As I said before, we're, you know, doing an open letter to tech companies, doing public records requests around facial recognition uses in different cities. We know that people are using facial recognition, even with mask on to track protesters. We also know that the Minneapolis police department, they're using contact tracing technologies to actually also track protesters. So our policy director and our research director are really on working on that, too. So there's a lot going on. But I think my main thing is, you know, how do we spread hope but hope in a very concrete way of let's we have to make this moment, whether it's Koban 19 pandemic or this moment of apprising about long term social change and not just temporary reform.

The letter that you wrote on Medium, the statement of Solidarity, is just so powerful. Make sure to to link to that and some of the other opportunities to connect with data for black lives in the show. Notes for for this. But I do want to go back to that letter. And there is this this quote from Martin Luther King that's been making the rounds in the past week about riot being the language of the unheard. And then you take it one step further and you ask, you know, if riot is the language of the unheard. What has America failed to hear? And so I'm just going to take a second to let that question sink in, because I think it's so pivotal to all the conversations that are happening right now. And you do answer it in the statement of solidarity. But I'm wondering, while we have you here, if you would be willing to speak to that question, would you believe that America has failed to hear?

Yeah, I think that America I mean, what I liked about. I think it's great that people are sharing the quote, but I love the other context. This idea that there really are two Americas, you know, that there's one America where there's immense opportunity. There's culture. There's education. There's that. You know, I mean, I go on New York Times and I'm like, oh, interesting. You know, I'm I'm hearing about awesome mobilizations on the ground in Houston where we've supported leaders there who are doing amazing ways of using evidence based policing as a subversive tactics to actually abolish, you know, and and address the culture of policing and you know. But I'm going on New York Times and I'm seeing them talk about a guy who was in a meditation retreat for three months and he missed the whole pandemic in cold. I'm like, really? You know, but like, there's people who they they're so isolated from what's going on. Meanwhile, there's people who their daily life, as I said, is really defined by chronic unemployment, by this this, this, this, this real sense of frustration and and and and and despondency and death and despair. That is the result of circumstances. And I think it's not like people haven't been talking about these issues for a very long time.

Right. I mean, I as I said, I'm three years old, probably over half my life. I've been talking about police brutality, police killing, state sanctioned violence. But, you know, I think there's a conversation around racism. There's a conversation on white supremacy and structural racism. But what are the ways in which you know, not you know, these these this has been, you know, baked into our culture. But but but what are the ways in which we found to just totally deny it and to raise people's voices? I think for us, that's why data has been really, really important. Right. You know you know, alone, we we might be easily ignored, but there's power in a number, right. We're seeing that there's power in a number on the streets. And certainly we know when we think about this idea of data's protest, there's power in us coming together and using it as a way. If we reclaim it to do such and in the context of grassroots organizing and black leadership, black centered leadership, it can be this powerful tactic. But, you know, and I think in that Minneapolis piece, I wanted to make very clear that structural racism. What's happening there isn't just that black people are doing really bad.

That's been normalized across the world and across the country in particular. But that no black people there are doing really black, bad white folks have been doing really, really, really well. You know, like many like Minnesota is that is has more Fortune 500 companies as its headquarters than any other state. Right. People, white communities, they're made seventeen thousand dollars more above the national average. You know, if you look at one of the graphs that I put that based on this University of Minnesota study, there's currently no neighborhood that black people can actually afford to live in, according to the medium median income. Right. And what that's crazy. And I think people, you know. Yes, absolutely. You know you know, I think George Floyds Death really touched on. Again, these isolated incidents of police killings over forty nine people since the year 2000 had been murdered with impunity by police, by people. And in Minneapolis. But it also is reflecting this very long history of being a racist. Denied it, completely ignored. Right. And having to stand as Mark Luther King's as a missed, isolated island of dealing with issues yourself and also just being blamed for them.

And when I log into when I click on the Data for Black Lives Web site and I make it to the home page, this is for B.L. dot org. The first thing that comes up is data. As protest data, as accountability data, as collective action. And that's some of the ways that you've spoken about how we can use data to create a more equitable world, which is the really positive side and positive use of data. But then there's also the other side of things and how data can be used to cause harm to a lot of different communities. And I'm wondering if you can maybe provide some specific examples of how data can be used or maybe is currently being used for political oppression right now.

Yeah, I mean, there's so many examples, particularly now. I mentioned some early, but I want to say this first. I think so many people are talking about abolish the police chief on the police. That's really important demands to make. But I don't believe that we can abolish or defund the police unless we abolish Big Data, which is the name of the book that I'm writing and working on. Also the name of the lectures that I've been giving all year up until the pandemic. And the idea behind Abolish Big Data is really grounded in abolition, which is part of the black freedom movement. And certainly, you know, the movement in prisons and to make, you know, prisons have become the answer to social problems. But also this like the original reform movement in this country, which is the movement to end slavery, but, you know, abolish the data means to dismantle the structures that put the power of data into the hands of a few, but then to put it into the hands of people who needed the most. Right. And I think people talk about policing and what we're really dealing with is a culture of policing. Right? It's these institutions. Yes, it's the eighth precinct, which is near my house in Brooklyn.

Yes. It's many definitely. Certainly Minneapolis Police Department and the white supremacist police union there. But it's also a culture that seeped into schools, as I talked about in my school, where my school was a place of crime fighting instead of like learning. It seeped into the economy. Right. And who gets opportunities and who's barred from them? And I mean, just people's even daily experiences of going into stores and like having to experience racism. But most importantly, it's really being seeped into technology. And I think, you know, no algorithm is neutral, no technology is neutral. But whether it's, you know, facial recognition right now and how they're really doubling down on using it to track protesters. I mean, whether it's predictive policing, I was on an interview with a report yesterday and they asked me about IBM and Microsoft make noise. IBM has been doing predictive policing since 1963. Microsoft has tried to kind of really position themselves as like v put predictive policing, you know, people like like company forever now. Right. Like, this is a big industry. Right. Like Amazon, obviously with facial recognition, you know, and I think, you know, it's risk assessments.

Right. And I think what you know, how you know and not only that, not only in the term of policing, but I think one of the things that we also talk about, too, is I really highlight in this article in the medium post is also economically right. Go credit scores. You know, I think a lot of people don't realize that Psycho is in, you know, some federal agency. I mean, I spoke at a congressional briefing and there are folks who were who there didn't realize that. Right. Which is sad. But FICO is a fair Isaac Corporation and they're a private company that through a collusion of data brokers, TransUnion, Experian and Equifax that have so much power over people's economic lives where we have no recourse, no ability to change it. Maybe there's federal structures like they could, the Consumer Protection Financial Bureau. But for the most part, there's no recourse. Right. I know families right now. Now, especially in this pandemic, who cannot afford to rent a house and maybe are able, who are really hard working and are able to like come up with a security deposit, but because of their credit score and the fact that they're blaggard are being barred from safe and affordable housing. Right. That's like that's crazy. And I think, you know, how does that happen? Right.

How are these how is it that zip code, which is one of the things one of the main variables that's used in FICO credit scores, you know, becomes not only just a reflection of geographically where we live, but also reflection of generations of segregation that started in 1933 and certainly before that. And it's now baked into these algorithms and is perpetuated on a large scale basis. Right. So I think, you know, there is a lot to be done around exposing algorithms and exposing bias, but also abolishing it. Right. And that's what we talk about in this open letter to Facebook that I did. How can we make sure, you know, making demands on companies like Facebook or Genetix, companies like 23 me that have done a lot of work to target black communities for data testing and DNA testing because they need a bigger database to then sell this information to pharmaceutical companies. How do we make demands on them to hand over data knowing that their bread and butter is our data? How do we establish structures like Public Data Trust? Right. Data cooperatives as a way for us to not just get individual value as black people out of our data, but collective right. You know? And I think that's the mindset shift that we're really pushing for. We don't see these tools as being neutral, but I know that data can be a tool depending on whose hands it's in. Right. And I think I've seen that happen in my life and I've seen how powerful it was. And I think the time is now, right? Especially in this moment, you know, where we're really in a very visible way. I think for the first time ever, people are really seeing the other America. Right. So, yeah, I'm, um.

So I'm a I'm a pastor. I'm a minister serving a congregation currently and the.

Yeah.

And and it's it's a predominantly white suburban congregation and folks are feeling hopeless.

And I know it's like maybe even just like a microcosm of of white guilt and all all of these things.

But when you talk about things like, you know, redlining and police brutality and all of these things keep adding up. I think there's a lot of folks in white communities and many communities of hopelessness and feeling ineffective and wanting to do something, but not knowing what to do. And so I guess the question is kind of two pronged. First is like, how do we retain hope in this moment and move forward? And then the second is, you know what, for folks who do want to do something from from any community, but maybe if there's any specific communities you want to speak to, what what do you recommend that people do right now?

Those are quick, great questions. And I love bringing in the aspect of faith and spirituality, because I do think that that's really been able for me to be maintain my vision and to build my vision and to believe even when the current reality is telling me something totally different and and facing like an extreme opposition. Right. And I think, you know, what gives me hope is, you know, I feel blessed in the sense that I am connected to and I know people who are doing amazing work. Right. It's there's so much going on in Minneapolis right now. People's entire communities that have had their head have been burned down. People are feeling lost and homeless. But to hear people say we've actually fought for this for five years and we never thought this would happen, we fought to get police out of our schools in Miami. And that hasn't happened yet. But I'm like, wow, like actually that's a win for everybody.

And I guess for me, it's like if you're not connected to these stories, I think, you know you know, I mean, one of the things that that we're trying to do is like trying to uplift them more. But, you know, I think people can try to search them out. Right. But I think even more on a global level and like, you know, even more deeply, I think what this moment is calling us right now to realize is that, again, a lot of these things have been happening under the surface, that there is there has been another America. There has been so there was a lot of chaos. There is a change and there's a lot of loss. But I but I do feel like at first, all change does feel like loss. I feel like we're grieving a world and a way of living that we might have been comfortable with. We might have been used to. But I think we have to, you know, hope against hope. Right. That's that. What's coming after this and what's being worked out at this moment is going to be something that's going to be different and powerful and beautiful. Yes. This is in the. Authoritarianism, militarization of police. But, you know, we have to believe that. And I think having that perspective and being grounded in that and being even grounded in love and gratitude right now is really important.

I mean, so much stuff is happening. Helicopters flying, planes flying low, curfews, these are all kind of like fear and intimidation tactics. And we can't allow ourselves to ourselves to embody that. It's hard sometimes it means staying off of Twitter, which I try to do. Sometimes it means, you know, whatever you have to do. But how do we not embody that? And I even said this during the 2016 election when all this stuff with Donald Trump, we have this person is spewing so much vitriol and so much polarization. You know, I can't respond with the same spirit. Right. Like, how can I respond with love and with grace and and with hope. And I know that in my position I need to. Right. Whether it's me on my team meetings and folks are feeling afraid and hopeless and sad or whether it's me, you know, interacting with somebody I'm on the phone with who is dealing with a lot of stuff, who again, is in a city where in Atlanta they just locked up six hundred youth, you know, and they're trying to bail them out. Right. How do I know? And I think there's a way to do it without obviously dismissing people's real feelings of grief, but also like holding space for that.

And then and also while just holding space for your own. And I'm going to be real. This kind of resilience and this kind of faith is a muscle I've had to build over the years. Right. And I think that in a lot of ways have what prepared me for this moment. But I think a big thing is this fear and this intimidation. We cannot allow ourselves to embody it and what people can do. I mean, I just listed some stuff. But, you know, I think it's great that people are donating. I think it's great that people are, you know, trying to get involved if it's folks anybody. Doesn't matter if you're a data scientist or activist, whatever. Please sign up for our movement. We have an online form. We want to get folks plugged in in whichever way. We have a newsletter that that people can read. But what I always tell people is figure out what's going where you live, like what's going on, where you live. Right. I wrote in that medium post Minneapolis is a metaphor for our world. What's happening in Minneapolis and what has caused this worldwide uprising? Probably some similar circumstances and conditions are happening where you live. Right. And figuring out who were organizations who what are groups that have been working on this, even if it's as simple as, you know, you know, you try to get linked up with a local youth organization that's working on school issues.

Right. Or police brutality. When we would go to the school board and talk about with brutality in schools or restorative justice. It made a difference to have community members there to support us at meetings and actions. Right. Like stuff like that really makes a difference. I think there's so many things that are happening no matter where you live. Fighting and getting plugged into that is really important, I think in particular for data scientists and other folks who are in our movement figuring out like what skills do I have that I can lend to bear? And most importantly, whether it's in volunteer spaces or trying to show up at a protest right now, centering and taking leadership from black people, you know, and making sure that that's always something that's happening. Listening intently, learning how to d center ourselves and to bring other up to uplift other people. I think that's really important. I mean, I can go on and on and on, but, you know, you know, I do believe it. Like, care is the antidote to violence. I do believe that right now. Yes, there is a lot of insecurity. There is a lot of frustration and anger.

And we have to air that. We have to address that. But it's also, you know, how do we respond with love? How do we create community right now? How do we hold space for people? And what other practical thing? I see a lot of people posting like, oh, donate to ten of these organizations, find one organization and one thing that you really believed in and really push your folks to really donate. Right. Like it just fine. One thing and I think that if people need ideas, go on my Twitter. There's a fund raiser that's going on right now with the folks who'd been leading this fight in Minneapolis. What they're trying to fundraise for is not Bill. Right. Like, Bill is important. And we need to get people out of prison. But what happens when folks are out of jail and what happens with the protests end? People need community spaces of healing, organizing, justice, restorative justice. And, you know, they they they want off site type in youth that create spaces, you know, build out programs that are you fled in the absence of mental health infrastructure. Right. In the absence of churches and other services being open, you know, in a city where because of the Koven 19 pandemic, they had actually slashed a lot of important programs. So find one group that you really care about that you've looked into. And hopefully in that, you know, maybe isn't just a bill. A lot of these bill funds are saying that they are actually at capacity and like really pushing that right now if you are going to do online.

Um, yeah. And for our listeners and anyone who's really looking to take action right now outside of signing up for the mailing list for data for black lives or donating, and outside of looking at the organization that is linked on your Twitter, do you have any other specific examples of groups, researchers or organizations who are just really important and impactful right now that people could benefit from looking into to get involved with?

Yeah, I think, you know, there's just there's really so many I think I would have to ask people where they live. Right. I think in every single city. I mean, let me see. You know, I. And also what they're interested in. How do I do this? I yeah. Like I mean, you know, there's these big national groups. I mean, even for us, like, I'm not pushing. Yes. Please. People don't need to test data for black lives. In fact, most of the funds that we're raising are going to lead with rapid response efforts on the ground. I think a lot of other national groups are trying to say, hey, focus on local things that are happening, but, you know, supporting data for black lives because we do support local organizing. But there isn't. You know, the group that I spoke about, data for public good, that that's in Minneapolis, led by America theft record and a whole amazing group of community leaders. Who else? There's so many, I think, you know, pleat like it. Folks really want to know. We can have a conversation and I can put them in touch with folks where they live. I think that's the most important thing, because once this moment is over and once the protest ends. How do we really organize? Right. And it's it it really differs based on where you live and also what, you know, issues that are really important to you.

I think it's a more nuanced conversation. And I think that's at the heart of organizing. Right. How do we meet people where they're at it and how do we make sure that whoever we are and we're coming into these spaces that we're, you know, being plugged into in a way that's meaningful? So and that really depends on a lot of factors. So I hope. Sorry, I you could give like here's the answer for everybody. But I you know, I think that's part of organizing and movement building. It's it's an iterative process and it's most importantly about relationship building.

And that's how you how you endure a statement of solidarity as well is the statement. You know, I hope you can be a part of what we are building. And I think even that simple statement is just so powerful that we're moving forward together. And so for folks that do want to contact you in particular, is there a way that folks can be in touch with you?

Yeah, we have. You know, people can reach out on our info info at D4, be yelled at or we also have a forum on our Web site. And I'm also on Twitter at. Yes, she can. I always left my Twitter. Yes, she can. And also the data for Black Lives at Twitter. And I'm trying to stay off of Twitter, but I am still really R&D, Ms. Because so many people are reaching out. And in particular, if you want to be a volunteer again, you don't have to just be data scientist or a software engineer. You can be an artist, a teacher. If you if if if you are a black person or a black community leader and just wanted to be involved. Absolutely. Please sign up. That's a good place to kind of let us know what you're interested and what skills you have, what you want to learn about. And I think for folks who it's going to be a bit more plugged into interacting with the community. We have a Facebook group as well that's just called Data for Black Lives like group or whatever. So, yeah, there's different ways right now.

I have to tell you, every time I see your Twitter handle, it puts a smile on my face. Oh, really? I'm like, oh, that's so clever.

But yes, you do. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with us and speak to our community today. It really means a lot. Thank you.

We again want to thank Yoshi so much for joining us for today's episode. And again, want to name our support of data for black lives as they use data science to create concrete and measurable change in the lives of black people. Normally, during this time, at the end of the episode, Jess and I do a brief debrief of the episode. But for today's episode, we actually want to let yes words speak for themselves.

For more information on today's show, please visit the episode page at Radical A.I., Dawg.

And if you enjoyed this episode, we invite you to subscribe rate and review the show on iTunes or your favorite pod catcher. Join our conversation on Twitter at radical iPod.

And as always, stay radical.

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